M = Media
N = News
RS = Radio Session
TV = Television Appearance
The Stone Roses = Release
1987
Ian Brown - Vocals
John Squire - Lead Guitar
Alan 'Reni' Wren - Drums, Backing Vocals
Pete Garner - Bass Guitar
1987 - John continues to creat art: John Squire paints several guitars including Pete Garner's bass. Ian wears an action painting/pollock style shirt at several shows. John eventully paints Reni's kit too (a mixture of Ludwig, vintage, and a big expensive Sonor snare drum).
01 January 1987 - The Stone Roses Interview features in Debris Magazine, Issue 14.
Notes: Debris Magazine was a Manchester based magazine. The magazine included a free 7inch flexi disc featuring The Metro-Trinity and Inspiral Carpets. The Stone Roses ''Tell Me’ Influenced the song 'Garage Full Of Flowers' which features here on the 1987 Flexi Disc, given away with issue 14 of Debris magazine, January 1987.
30 January 1987 Friday - International 1, 47 Anson Road, Manchester, M14 * Ticket Price: £2 (Advance) £2.50 (On The Door)
Notes:
The show was recorded, Ian sent a copy of the private tape to his friend Duncan. Ian also wrote in an accompanying letter '''Duncan, Here's your tape at last! Side A is mostly 8 track demos which sound pretty weakish but being a technical wizard, you'll understand these things. Besides the classic 'Fernando' on Side B the others on the side are all Hannett Production of early tunes we only actually still play 'This Is The One' and when you hear you'll know why!! See you soon, Ian p.s. cheers for the syd/jimi tape x. Also included was a tape from Interntional 30/1/87”
Taken from: Private Tape : http://www.thestoneroses.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/tape-pic.jpg
From Simon Spence War & Peace Unedited Interview with Dave Roberts - A&R at FM Revolver / Heavy Metal Records: He rang me at home and said, It’s Gareth from the International, I’ve got this band you’d like and they’re selling out the International. It was his big speech, which he’s very good at… but I think I’ve heard that [free entry rumour] somewhere… it’s nonsense. I was already going to things free at the International. I had a relationship with Gareth before that… it was never discussed. I always wondered how they did it [selling out the International].The rumour was about Gareth giving away tickets to try and make it look full. Liverpool’s not far away and nobody was coming and that was after Sally came out… Gareth’s a great PR person, that’s his forte, he’s a great blagger, hard to argue with… if I was a young band today, I’d be quite pleased someone was managing to get 800 people in to a venue for me when I couldn’t do that anywhere else.
20 February 1987 - Ian Brown's 24th birthday
February 1987 - International 1, 47 Anson Road, Manchester, M14 * Ticket Price: £2 (Advance) £2.50 (On The Door)
Sally Cinnamon / Hardest Thing In The World / Mersey Paradise
Notes: Unconfirmed Date. Probably the live debut of Mersey Paradise. Billy Smith attended the show for Melody Maker Magazine and he interviewed the band too, a review and interview both feature in 28 February 1987 Melody Maker Magazine. See Media for the interiview.
1987 - Sally Cinnamon Sessions, The Cottage, Macclesfield, Cheshire
Sally Cinnamon (12inch Version) / All Across The Sand (Original 12inch Version) / Here It Comes
Notes: The Sally Cinnamon Mixing Sessions. The single was mixed from 8 track demos the band had already recorded. Sally Cinnamon & All Across The Sand from the 1989 re-release were recorded in Chorlton. Roger Boden is credited as mixing the original 1987 single pressing. The label credited the production to Simon and The Stone Roses.
From Simon Spence War & Peace Unedited Interview with Dave Roberts - A&R at FM Revolver / Heavy Metal Records: ...We did a contract with the Roses; it was to put out an EP initially. We took those demos, which were 8-track demos and, because we didn’t really have budgets to go recording stuff and I thought they were great in their own right, we took them to a producer/engineer I knew who had a little studio in Macclesfield called The Cottage. He took the 8-track demos and tried to brighten them up a bit with the band and that became the Sally Cinnamon single.... We did a photo session at the old run-down Belle Vue Greyhound stadium. We drove around in my car and we were discussing what kind of producers would you want to do your album. Ian particularly said, I think we should be using some kind of dance producer. We’re not an indie band, we should be a dance band and we should be trying to bring in those kinds of elements. I was surprised because I pretty much perceived them as an indie guitar band at the time. He had that vision...There was no advance to the band for Sally Cinnamon… I think they were pretty desperate to get a record out because no one was interested in them. We just paid for those tracks to be remixed, that was the token advance, probably a few hundred quid. They weren’t necessarily in a position to pick and choose.
1987 - Photo Session at Belle Vue Greyhound Stadium
From Simon Spence War & Peace Unedited Interview with Dave Roberts - A&R at FM Revolver / Heavy Metal Records: We did a photo session at the old run-down Belle Vue Greyhound stadium. We drove around in my car and we were discussing what kind of producers would you want to do your album.
10 April 1987 - Reni's 23nd birthday
May 1987 - M - Ian Brown appears on the cover of Buzzin' Free Magazine, Volume 1 Issue 5
Notes: Featured a three-page interview with photos of the band eating out at a restaurant, apparently the bill was paid for by Gareth Evans.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Andy Couzens said: Even today John and Ian, who were my closest friends fell hook line and sinker for his money dropping free haircuts and takin' them out for a meal, even now I can't believe it, that's all it was, just a control thing.
April 1987 Sunday - Tony The Greek Piccadilly Radio Show
Notes: Long term fan DJ Tony Michaelides aka Tony The Greek interviews ‘Made in Manchester’ fanzine author.
The show announes for a £1.50 postal order and a large stamped-addressed envelope, you could obtain the fanzine, along with a cassette of demo tracks by The Railway Children, The Bodines, King of The Slums and The Stone Roses. Tony plays track 2 from the tape, Sally Cinnamon.
18 May 1987 or June 1987 - Sally Cinnamon U.K. Release Date
Sally Cinnamon, Here It Comes, All Across the Sand - Written by John Squire & Ian Brown.
All Across the Sand - Lyrics by Ian Brown. Sally Cinnamon - Lyrics by Ian Brown.
Produced by The Stone Roses with Simon Machan (Engineer). Mixed by Roger Boden.
Format: 12inch Vinyl
Matrix A-Side: NO PASARAN! < 12-REV-36-A-1 TIMTOM
Matrix B-Side: 12 REV 36 B1 < TY1
Catalog Number: 12 REV36 (No barcode) Made In England
Label: Black/FM Revolver
Artwork: Front cover photographed by Matt Squire. Back cover photo by Matt Squire, Sue & Tom.
Sally Cinnamon (12inch Version)
Here It Comes
All Across the Sand (Original 12inch Version)
Notes: Unconfirmed date, Silvertone's Elephant Stone ORE 1 promo media sheet (A4 size) says 'July 1987'.
The first 12inch pressing was limited to 1,000 pressings. The initial pressing can be identified by the rear of the sleeve, it is missing a barcode and was 'Made In England'. Also check out the vinyl labels they have slightly different font for the text too.
The version of All Across The Sand is unique to this release. An alternate recording featured on all sub-sequent re-releases.
Black/FM Revolver press advert (June 1987 - Underground Magazine, Issue 3) noted the track list as ''Sally Cinnamon/Here It Comes/All Across The Sand''. Simon Machan produced the single and was also the band’s sound technician too.
The original single received heavy playing at most Manchester indie nights, with a little help from Dave Haslam and his Thursday night temperance club at the Hacienda.
The sleeve artwork was photographed by (John Squire's brother) Matt Squire, who would later photograph most of the band’s artwork. The sleeve of Sally Cinnamon shows a picture of a bubble-gum machine. Ian Brown recalled "We used to get the train to Hazel Grove, just to go to this newsagent where they've got the biggest, best penny tray in the world''.
The single entered the UK Indie Chart in June 1987, spent thirty-nine weeks in the chart and peaked at number three. The single would see a string of re-releases in the next five years, including a controversial unauthorised promo video being produced in 1989 too.
Ian Brown wrote the lyrics to Sally Cinnamon. From Debris Magazine 1988 Interview: Ian; “Sally was a sort of semi-conscious effort to shake off So Young, which unfortunately sounds quite gothy and was big in the Ritz. People actually thought we were goths and were pissed off that we had short hair!" Ian; “Too much enthusiasm and not enough thought went into that record. They weren't really songs, just a sound. We've learned how to write now." And you're still fairly unknown outside Manchester. "That's because the only way to break outside Manchester is a record and I don't think Sally Cinnamon is representative of what we're like live. Playing live is how we'll win people over."
From 16 February 2000 Wednesday - music365.com Ian Brown Q & A Session: JonN: Who or what is Sally Cinnamon apart from the best pop song ever? Ian: A fictitious lesbian. The song’s about picking someone's pocket on a train and finding a love letter from one girl to another.
Apparently All Across the Sand had a rather macabre subject matter, Ian Brown had recently obtained a book about serial killers. There was one story about a charismatic, handsome German who women quickly fell in love with. After intercourse he murdered them and buried their dismembered bodies in sand. This story was the basis to the lyrics Brown had concocted for the tune and can be acertained from the lines "Bones of an impressive romance scattered all across the sand, a secret safe with all the world, too vain to seem so capable" and "A freight train laughs and rattles by, you kissed the girls and made them die".
I believe that unreleased 'Pearl Bastard' was influenced by the book too.
25 July 1987 - Sally Cinnamon is featured in the NME Magazine Single Reviews: ''THE STONE ROSES Sally Cinnamon (Black): Would-be Springsteens, big in Manchester. Sentimental and macho; dull and worthy.''
From Melody Maker Magazine, 09 December 1989: ''The Stone Roses re-release their indie classic “Sally Cinnamon" this week. The single's been hard to get hold of since its release in February l987...''
From Simon Spence War & Peace Unedited Interview with Dave Roberts - A&R at FM Revolver / Heavy Metal Records:
I lived in Macclesfield. I went to the University of Manchester. I was writing for Sounds. I got to know Paul Birch [the boss] at Heavy Metal Records, before it became FM Revolver. I’d reviewed some of his records and he said, Do you want an A&R job part-time and listen to this sack full of demo tapes. I was doing that a couple, of days a week and I ended working there full-time. During that time, I was still doing lots of reviews in Manchester and I got to know Gareth at the International. He would put me on the guest list for different bands I had to review. Then when I was doing FM Revolver, he rang one day and said, I’m managing this amazing band, The Stone Roses, they’re selling out the International, big following here and then he was asking about the label and distribution. I think somewhere in there he got us confused with Revolver which was based in Bristol, which was part of that whole Rough Trade / Cartel distribution network; a network of independent distributors/labels. I think he got me confused with that. Anyway, I went to see the Roses and met them a couple of times and heard some demos, including Sally Cinnamon, which was amazing. I went to Paul [Birch] and said we should be branching out into different types of music. We set up this label identity, Black, and I went to Red Rhino [part of the Rough Trade / Cartel network] to do distribution via them because the Heavy Metal Records’ stuff went through a major distributor and it didn’t feel right the Roses stuff should be on there. In the contract there was an option to record an album as well. I can’t remember what the budget was but we had to pay a certain amount to pick up the option to go and record a first album. We did a contract with the Roses; it was to put out an EP initially. We took those demos, which were 8-track demos and, because we didn’t really have budgets to go recording stuff and I thought they were great in their own right, we took them to a producer/engineer I knew who had a little studio in Macclesfield called The Cottage. He took the 8-track demos and tried to brighten them up a bit with the band and that became the Sally Cinnamon single. We did a photo session at the old run-down Belle Vue Greyhound stadium. We drove around in my car and we were discussing what kind of producers would you want to do your album. Ian particularly said, I think we should be using some kind of dance producer. We’re not an indie band, we should be a dance band and we should be trying to bring in those kinds of elements. I was surprised because I pretty much perceived them as an indie guitar band at the time. He had that vision.
John did the artwork and delivered the artwork, the bubble-gum machine thing ... and we put it out and nothing happened at all. Piccadilly Records [in Manchester] sold the bulk of them but nowhere else cared. We didn’t get any radio play, didn’t get any reviews.
We didn’t have budgets for PRs and pluggers, we generally did everything ourselves … I had quite a few contacts and sent it to various people and tried to plug the NME with it. No one came back even acknowledging it, let alone saying they liked it. No one cared at all.
They carried on writing stuff. I went down to rehearsals; they were rehearsing in the International. I heard some new songs and went back to Paul and said, The new songs are great, what do you want to do and really because nothing had happened with the single at all, he said it doesn’t make sense to carry on. We didn’t really make a decision about that. We didn’t say no we’re not doing it and the band didn’t force our hand. Gareth didn’t say are you going to do it? So there no definitive decision made and we waiting… sitting by the side-lines. Paul wasn’t sure.
The gigs they were doing … I went to see them in Liverpool, this was after the single came out, there was about six people in the crowd. Five of them I’d invited, they became Scorpio Rising. It was all pretty low key at that point. Apart from in Manchester when they played the International every three or four months and they sold 1,000 tickets. It was always a bit of a strange one that. We all lost contact and nothing was resolved. Then about two years later one of the girls who worked in the office in Wolverhampton said she had seen them at JDs in Dudley over the weekend. She came in on Monday and said I saw The Stone Roses last night and they were absolutely fucking amazing …they’ve got this weird dancing guy on stage and it was absolutely rammed and they were going down a storm.
We had an option to pick up an album that we didn’t say we weren’t going to and we didn’t pick it up either. In theory we were supposed to end that agreement contractually before they could go onto Silvertone. There was an argument, and Paul said maybe we should be taking Silvertone to court, and saying actually that was our option for the album and we didn’t decline it. I don’t know how much that would have stood up in court because two years had gone by where we hadn’t said yes, we want to do it. We decided it was probably more money than it was worth and we probably wouldn’t get anywhere with it.... There was no advance to the band for Sally Cinnamon… I think they were pretty desperate to get a record out because no one was interested in them. We just paid for those tracks to be remixed, that was the token advance, probably a few hundred quid. They weren’t necessarily in a position to pick and choose.
So, you got the deal with Red Rhino distribution for Sally Cinnamon… Red Rhino was based in York, a guy called Pete Thompson was running it, he’s now the head of PIAS/Vital… I went to him and said we’re starting this label and people knew us, so they were quite interested in something that was a different genre to what we’d done before. It was important to have independent distribution for our Black label. We tried to sign a few bands at the time to Black and none of them were successful, a band called Dream from Nottingham, then we did The Wild Flowers, Crazyhead… that whole scene came out of Birmingham, PWEI and Mighty Lemon Drops - I wanted to do something with them.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Gareth Evans said: They (Black/Revolver) were never interested in the Roses, they weren't even bothered... There was a brief period after Sally Cinnamon came out...they weren't bothered...And there was no money for gigs, no money for promotion, we did it all from the International, it was all my money.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Noel Gallagher said: Musically they could have been bigger than The Beatles, because they had it...I remember hearing Sally Cinnamon for the first time and thinking I could do that, y'know?, I could write songs like that and it was just y'know everything went into colour...
Noel Gallagher said: “When I heard Sally Cinnamon for the first time, I knew what my destiny was. “The Roses sang in Manchester accents, they wore the same clothes, they went to the same clubs, you could see them down the same shops where you were buying your desert boots and your flared jeans.”
A fan said: In 2009 I emailed FM Revolver Records to see if they would ever re-release Sally with the correct version of All Across The Sand on CD. The infamous Paul Birch replied to me. He apparently had no idea about this and looked into it. We exchanged a series of emails, I was keen to get this released and encouraged him by tying it in with the 20th Anniversary of the debut album that was getting remastered and re-released in a lavish super deluxe edition. He concluded I was indeed correct and they'd made a mistake on their re-release and included a couple of demo versions. They had apparently realised at some point about Sally but not the b- side. He assured me he would re-release Sally again and include the correct version of All Across The Sand and he said he'd send me a complimentary copy. I'm still waiting!
1987 - Rehearsals, International 1, 47 Anson Road, Manchester, M14
Notes: From Simon Spence War & Peace Unedited Interview with Dave Roberts - A&R at FM Revolver / Heavy Metal Records: They carried on writing stuff. I went down to rehearsals; they were rehearsing in the International. I heard some new songs and went back to Paul and said, The new songs are great, what do you want to do and really because nothing had happened with the single at all, he said it doesn’t make sense to carry on...In that Sally Cinnamon period… They had great songs and the chemistry between them was amazing. Reni’s a great drummer and brought something special to it, John’s a great guitarist and Ian’s melodies –the song writing was just amazing. Those song I was listening to in demos and in rehearsals subsequently became the bulk of the first album… the first album was still that indie jangly guitar thing, they just wrote better songs than anybody else, then it was the whole attitude thing, then it was the whole Madchester thing, then Fools Gold came subsequently.
May 2002 - From The Very Best Of 2002 sleeve notes, article by John McCready: Ian: When you're that confident, some people will hate you for it. They won't love you for it. But I love cocky people, me. Ali, Prince Naseem - cocky people who can back it up. And we definitely could. We lived and breathed nothing but music. We'd start rehearsing at ten in the morning we'd finish about 7 at night, 5 or 6 days a week. We'd go straight round to each other's houses from rehearsals and be talking about music until three in the morning. That happened every single day.
30 May 1987 - International 1, 47 Anson Road, Manchester, M14
Notes: Dave Roberts, FM Revolver A&R Man, attended the show. The band were performing with a paint-splattered backdrop, Ian even had a pollock style shirt designed by John too. John also customised some of his guitars in this manner, Mani's bass and even Reni's drum kit.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Gareth Evans said: The canteen at Manchester University got a ticket with their tray, I used to put them under the trays individually and I think I only got kicked out once.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Steve Adge said: It was a dump, you wipe your feet on the way out, y'know what I mean?. It wasn't a place where you'd take your girlfriend on a first date.
Dealing with Gareth with anything to do with money was a battle.
15 June 1987 Monday - The Stone Roses - Sally Cinnamon is played on the John Peel Show, BBC Radio 1
26 June 1987 Friday - International 1, 47 Anson Road, Manchester, M14 * Doors Open: 20:00-01:30am * Ticket Price: £2.50 * Stage Times: The Waltones 20:30 The Stone Roses (scheduled stage time) 21:30 * * Support Act(s): DJ Tony The Greek, The Waltones *
Elephant Stone / The Hardest Thing In The World / Where Angels Play / Sally Cinnamon / (Song For My) Sugar Spun Sister / All Across The Sand / Here It Comes / The Sun Still Shines / Going Down / So Young / Mersey Paradise / Your Time Will Come / This Is The One / Tell Me
Notes: The Interntional flyers at the time denoted '(new single 'Sally Cinnamon' - Out Now)'. Pretty sure Andy Couzens was in the audience for the show. Primal Scream played the night after. DJ Tony Michaelides aka Tony The Greek opened the show.
Debut performances of Where Angels Play, Going Down & Your Time Will Come. Your Time Will Come still remains unreleased today. First known live recordings of Elephant Stone, Where Angels Play, Going Down, Mersey Paradise & Your Time Will Come.
Mostly early versions with alternate lyrics and arrangements, sounding similar to the demos recorded around the era too. Where Angels Play is a different arrangement and includes a bridge would which later be dropped from the song all together.
Many people mishear the line "River cools, where I belong in my Mersey paradise" as "Liverpool's where I belong, in my Mersey paradise". The source of the river Mersey begins at the confluence of the rivers Goyt and Tame in Greater Manchester. The Mersey runs through Chorlton, where John Squire lived at the time. More specifically the lyrics referred to Chorlton Water Park, e.g. "As I stare an oil wheel comes sailing by and I feel like growing fins and falling in, with the bricks, the bikes, the rusty tins, I swim along without a care, I'm eating sand when I need air, you can bet your life, I'll meet a pike who'll wolf me down for tea tonight, I want to be (I want to be), where the drownings are (drownings are)."
See Media for the review, 11 July 1987 - Sounds Magazine review by John Robb.
See Media for the review, 01 August 1987 - NME Magazine Review by Dave Haslam.
January 2009 - Uncut Magazine, Stephen Dalton interviews Dave Haslam: I was freelancing in the NME in 1987 and I reviewed the Roses playing at the International that year and I fought for weeks to get that review placed. At this point the band were getting 700 people to their gigs in Manchester, and some tiny live review in NME, grudgingly given. But they were good days in a way, being unheralded or ignored wasn’t really a problem...
From 2001 I Am Without Shoes Exclusive Mani Interview: > IAWS: Favourite Roses song and why? Mani: ...My favourite Roses song… I’ve got a soft spot for Mersey Paradise believe it or not, I don’t really know why. IAWS: Some great melodies, especially from Reni. Mani: Yeah, Reni was the unnoticed talent, he has a fuckin’ great voice, especially on that song. > IAWS: Sun Still Shines and Your Time Will Come are two great Roses songs that never made it on to ‘The Stone Roses’. Why? > Mani: No particular reason, I guess we just had better ones. I’m sure they were intended to be B-sides at some point, but they never made it onto record. We had quite a few others like Boy On The Pedestal and [didn’t write title down!] that never got recorded too. > IAWS: So, you know all the early stuff like Your Time Will Come, even before you were in the band? Mani: Oh yeah, I used to follow the band anyway, thought they were great. I reckon it was destiny for me to join that band. Your Time Will Come, that’s a long time ago, that’s a great song… (sings the chorus) … Your time will come, your river it will run… summer skies will light your eyes… yeah.
Bootleg: What The World Is Waiting For - Tape (IAWS I Am Without Shoes / stoneroses.net (Will Odell)) Soundboard
Bootleg: "What The World Is Waiting For" (IAWS I Am Without Shoes / stoneroses.net (Will Odell). Date noted as 26 July 1987. CD Originally Priced: £12.00, Cassette: £3.50) CD / Tape - Soundboard
Bootleg: This Is The One - CD-R () Soundboard
Bootleg: Stone Roses '87 - CD-R (Odilon Records. Cat. No.: OR-001. Made In Japan. CD-R with printed label face. Spelling mistakes on sleeve and on disc. Disc 'Mandhester Interntional 1987', sleeve 'Manchester Internasional 1987' and more. Track 12 listed as 'Untitled'. Disc appears to be a copy of Will Odell's What The World Is Waiting For cd.) Soundboard
Bootleg: Roses, Remixes and Rarities (IAWS I Am Without Shoes / stoneroses.net (Will Odell). "" Cassette Originally Priced: £4, Running Time (Approx): 85mins) - I Wanna Be Adored (Piccadily Radio 1985) / Sally Cinnamon (12" Extended Mix) / Your Time Will Come (Live, Manchester 1987) / Elephant Stone *Full Fathom Five 7inch (Backwards Mix) / Full Fathom Five (12inch Version) / Waterfall (Paul Oakenfold Remix) / I Am Without Shoes (Complete Stone Roses Bonus Disc) / This Is The One (Live, Manchester 1987) / Groove On (Black Magic Devil Woman) (Complete Stone Roses Bonus Disc) / Fools Gold (Top Won Mix by A Guy Called Gerald) / One Love (Adrian Sherwood Mix) / Love Spreads (13-Minute Remix) *One Generation Under A Groove, Flower Power Mix Bootleg Remix / Breakout (Love Spreads B-Side) / Begging You (Maddix/Ippinson Remix) / I Am The Resurrection (5:3 Stoned Out Club Mix) / Begging You (Overworld Remix) / Champagne Supernova (Oasis live at Knebworth - John Squire on lead guitar) - Tape
Primal Scream - 27 June 1987 Saturday - The Interntional, 47 Anson Rd., Manchester * Doors Open: * Ticket Price: £3 * Support Act(s):
Notes: I presume The Stone Roses attended the show.
17 July 1987 - Planet X, Liverpool
(Unconfirmed Setlist) Elephant Stone / The Hardest Thing In The World / Sally Cinnamon / (Song For My) Sugar Spun Sister / All Across The Sand / Here It Comes / The Sun Still Shines / So Young / Mersey Paradise / Your Time Will Come / This Is The One
Notes: Less than 25 people in the audience. Sally Cinnamon was among the songs played, Ian gave the mic to some hecklers during the song. Probably the last time So Young was played.
From Debris Magazine 1988 Interview: '' Ian; "Yeah, because it was so well-known in Manchester it's become an albatross and we've got to try to shake it off."''
From Simon Spence War & Peace Unedited Interview with Dave Roberts - A&R at FM Revolver / Heavy Metal Records: The gigs they were doing … I went to see them in Liverpool, this was after the single came out, there was about six people in the crowd. Five of them I’d invited, they became Scorpio Rising. It was all pretty low key at that point. Apart from in Manchester when they played the International every three or four months and they sold 1,000 tickets. It was always a bit of a strange one that. We all lost contact and nothing was resolved.... Their attitude showed all the way though. That gig in Liverpool, there was only six people in the crowd, but Ian was a total star, he was quite confrontational live but in a really good way, not in a I don’t wanna be here kind of way, in a come on we’re here doing this, there’s only six people in the crowd but give us something back… he was in your face, moving around, just an amazing charismatic front man.... Liverpool’s not far away and nobody was coming and that was after Sally came out…
Edwyn Collins - 22 July 1987 Wednesday - The Interntional, 47 Anson Rd., Manchester * Doors Open: 19:00 * Ticket Price: £3 * Support Act(s):
Notes: I presume, members of, The Stone Roses attended the show.
July 1987 - Take-Two, Sheffield, England * Support Act(s): The Prowlers
Elephant Stone / The Hardest Thing In The World / (Song For My) Sugar Spun Sister / Here It Comes / Sally Cinnamon / Where Angels Play / Your Time Will Come / She Bangs The Drums / The Sun Still Shines / Mersey Paradise / This Is The One
Notes: Approx 50 people attended. Probably the debut performance of She Bangs The Drums.
Ian took great exception to support band The Prowlers (from Leeds) whose guitarist had a confederate flag painted on his guitar, with all the racist connotations that entailed.
Upon seeing the support band's girlfriend waving a Confederate flag at him, Ian stopped the gig and launched into a speech about how the flag represented slavery, white supremacy and racism. It turned into a bit of a scrap, Ian threw his pint over the band who were sitting close by, and the Roses may well have cut the set short and left.
25 July 1987 Saturday - The New Adelphi Club, 89 De Grey St., Hull * Ticket Price: £2 (General) £1.50 (Club Members) * Support Act(s): Never Never, U.S. Megachicks
Notes: Poster denoted "Never Never from Driffield".
27 July 1987 - Panic Station, Dingwalls, Camden, London * Supporting: The Raw Herbs
(Unconfirmed Setlist) Elephant Stone / The Hardest Thing In The World / (Song For My) Sugar Spun Sister / Here It Comes / Sally Cinnamon / Where Angels Play / Your Time Will Come / She Bangs The Drums / The Sun Still Shines / Mersey Paradise / This Is The One
Notes: Approx 20 people in the audience (when The Stone Roses were on stage). The Wallflowers were first on stage.
Ian wore the pollock style shirt. John used his pollock style guitar and wore a red shirt. Pete wore a black shirt and used a marshall amp with head playing a black fender bass.
A fan remembers "Ian Brown was swinging from the pipes that were over the low ceiling above the stage. He swung with one hand, microphone in the other. When I started to research stuff for this post, I could not believe that I was able to find photos from that night! Thirty years later I’m seeing my memories lit up via these pics. Awesome. Not one, but two people were taking photos that night. This first one was taken by Andy McQueen and I found it on john-squire.com. He swung and landed right next to us. Still singing and doing that thing he does with the microphone swaying. He landed right in front of a bloke wearing gasses to our left, and with his free hand, still doing his dance, he removed the man’s glasses and put them on his own face. Oh my God, I was stunned. Ian got back on stage, still with the glasses on and finished the song. The poor glassless fella, blinked self-consciously, looking straight ahead and pretending not to care. Ian swung back down and replaced them on the dude’s face in the next song and did that swagger thing he does when he dances. It was amazing. After each song he’d go ‘Clap, clap. Clap, clap.’ in a mildly sarcastic way as twenty pairs of hands clapped. The rest of these photos were taken by Kaori Laird, I also got them from the website mentioned above. It was the original bass player, Pete Garner still in the band at this point. I chatted to him at the bar afterwards ‘loved your set!’ I gushed. Well, it wasn’t really a chat – that was it. He said ’thanks’ and I was chuffed to bits..."
11 August 1987 - Larks In The Park, Sefton Park, Liverpool * Support Act(s): The La's
Notes: The Stone Roses followed The La's performance on the band stand. This would be Peter's last show.
August - Pete Garner leaves the band.
Notes: Rob Hampson, friend of the band, stepped up and played bass guitar during some rehearsals. Unfortunately Rob couldn't play bass and Garner had to teach him. Rob used to live in the flat below Ian in Hulme, 1983 and he was friends with Steve Adge too.
Pete apparently sold his Pollock style Fender Precision Bass in A1 Music Store in Manchester.
Pete Garner, From John Robb's book 'The Stone Roses - Reunion Edition’: ‘I Saw Strummer getting interviewed on Snub TV just after I left the Roses. They asked him if he liked any bands and he said the Roses. I choked on my brew. I wanted to speak to John and say "Jesus!" Strummer had picked up on the Roses just when the album came out and they were still really underground. I'd love to have met him and tell him me and Ian had met him that time.'
1987 - Rehearsals, Manchester
Notes: Rob Hampson, friend of the band, was still learning from Pete but it was slow progress.
Hampson appeared in one Ian Tilton photo-shoot and then departed having never played live with the band.
Friend of the band Gary Mounfield joined the band between August and November, replacing Rob.
1987 - Gareth Evans hires Lindsay Reade
Notes: Tony Wilson's ex-wife helps The Stone Roses and is often credited as co-manager. Lindsay set up the upcoming Photo shoots and took a demo tape to London and gave it to Geoff Travis of Rough Trade Records.
Geoff said he turned to Lindsay Reade "after about ten seconds and said, 'We want to sign this band'." Travis also said that when he went backstage to tell The Roses he wanted to sign them, in classic fashion, The Roses' reaction was basically, "Meh... whatever."
M - September 1987 - Ian Tilton Photo Shoot, Ian Tilton's Studio.
Notes: Lindsay Reade, co-manager, sets up the photo shoot. The black and white photographs included John & Ian with a Squire art, pollock style background, painted guitar and shirt too.
Rob Hampson features in the photo shoot. He was a friend of the band's and played bass only temporarily in the band.
The Third Coming, The Definitive Exibithion Catalgoue shows photos taken from the session.
Ian Tilton said: “They’d been working at it for years when I first came into contact with them in 1985, then I photographed them in 1987, they came to my studio in Chorlton, and I realised at last they’ve got something good.”
From 06 March 2009 - Uncut Magazine Interview (Clash Music Website) with Ian Brown:
And then, because obviously like Cressa, half in the band, half out of the band, whatever...
That’s right, yeah. Just dancing and vibes, yeah.
He was getting referred to the other day as your style advisor. Would you agree with that? Or did he just have the baggiest trousers?
No a guy called Johnny Paulin was our style adviser and Cressa took his style off Johnny. Semi-flares, baseball caps, that mid-‘80s look.
What’s Johnny doing now? He’s a panel beater at a garage, yeah. I still speak to him every week.
What’s Cressa up to now? Cressa still doesn’t have a job. Did great, 44 years old, still signing on. Same as he did…
Johnny Paulin then. As far as all the flares and the paisley shirts and all that went - would you say he was single-handedly responsible for that? He was the first lad that we knew to wear semi-flares in ‘86, and then Cressa got into semis and me and John got into it. Then Cressa got into full flares and he gave me a pair of his old ones, jumbo cords, er, then I was the only one to wear flares and they all wore parallels. And at the time we loved it, because no one else had flares at all anywhere....
M - September 1987 - Cut (Manchester Monthly Paper) Interview
Notes: Anthony Davies speaks to Ian and Gareth Evans about the Roses' struggle to succeed. See Media for the interiview.
The Stone Roses watch Primal Scream - 30 September 1987 Wednesday - University, Manchester
Notes: Unconfirmed if The Stone Roses appeared at this show or 1988 - Boardwalk. I cannot find any gig info on a Boardwalk show in 88' though?
From 06-19 December 1995 - Raw Magazine, John Robb said: The Roses were never really clubbers on the Manchester scene. I only ever saw them at one gig – Primal Scream at The Boardwalk in 1988. They used to stay at home writing songs the whole time...
1987 - Clint Boon bumps into Ian & John at The Boardwalk
Notes: Clint finds out the news that Peter has left the band.
October 1987 Saturday - Clint Boon bumps into Greg Mounfield on Oldham Street, Manchester
Notes: Clint tells Greg Mounfield that The Stone Roses need a bass player. Greg is Gary 'Mani' Mounfield’s younger brother.
Gregg got Squire's number and Mani phoned him. According to Mani, he told Squire, "The job's mine." And Squire, replied "We should have come to you first!"
Gary 'Mani' Mounfield met the band on his dinner break by accident and asked to audition. Mani joined The Stone Roses on the same weekend. Info From Storytime with Boon - Episode 16 Podcast.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Gareth Evans said: Mani was never the brains in the band.
From October 1997 - I Wanna Be Adored BBC Radio 1 Documentary: Mani: "I'd been in a band with John in 1982 or something and we did some demos. Then I left cos I started doing a couple of crappy jobs cos it wasn't paying, and then I hooked back up with him. I was actually working in the theatres in Manchester, in the Palace and Opera House, and I used to walk from the Opera House to the Palace in my dinner-time. But I had to go and see somebody that day, and as I was walking up Oxford Road in Manchester, I bumped into Ian, John and Reni, going to put the advert up for a bass player. So it was like weird kismet man, it was meant to happen."
From September - October 1999 - On Target Magazine, Mani Interview:
When was the actual point when you realised you were gonna make it?
"I'd been doing my own thing until '87 and it was a real chance thing. I was working in a theatre, I was like a stage hand at the Opera House in Manchester just down the road. It was one dinner time and I just bumped into John - it was the first time I'd seen him for about six months. It was destiny, it was meant to happen. I'm a firm believer in kismet and fate and all that. I'm a prime example.
1987 - Gary 'Mani' Mounfield joins The Stone Roses
Notes: Gary Mounfield has mentioned his bass playing idols were Motown funk brother James Jarnerson, Joy Division's Peter Hook and The Clash‘s Paul Simonon.
From June 1998 - United We Stand Interview, Mani said: As for the Roses, well, I was working at the Opera House in 1987 and went walking up to the Palace Theatre one dinner time. As I walked up I bumped into John Squire and Reni going to put an advert up for a bass player for their new band. I told them to rip up the advert and stacked my job in that afternoon which was a good thing because I'm quite work shy. I had two weeks to learn fourteen tunes: Adored, She Bangs The Drums and all that. Throughout my time in the Stone Roses I never had time to sit back and enjoy what we were doing. The Roses just snowballed but it beat the shit out of going abroad robbing for a living."
Ian Brown - Vocals
John Squire - Lead Guitar
Alan 'Reni' Wren - Drums, Backing Vocals
Gary Michael 'Mani' Mounfield - Bass Guitar
October 1987 - Rehearsals, Manchester
Notes: Rehearsals start with Mani on bass.
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Mani said: I actually had to do a lot of hard work to get myself up to speed.
From 2001 I Am Without Shoes Exclusive Mani Interview: > IAWS: Sun Still Shines and Your Time Will Come are two great Roses songs that never made it on to ‘The Stone Roses’. Why? > Mani: No particular reason, I guess we just had better ones. I’m sure they were intended to be B-sides at some point, but they never made it onto record. We had quite a few others like Boy On The Pedestal and [didn’t write title down!] that never got recorded too. > IAWS: So, you know all the early stuff like Your Time Will Come, even before you were in the band? Mani: Oh yeah, I used to follow the band anyway, thought they were great. I reckon it was destiny for me to join that band. Your Time Will Come, that’s a long time ago, that’s a great song… (sings the chorus) … Your time will come, your river it will run… summer skies will light your eyes… yeah.
May 2002 - From The Very Best Of 2002 sleeve notes, article by John McCready: Mani: Music then had gone through the direst patch. OK, we had New Order and The Smiths. But we also had to endure Kajagoogoo and all that shite. Something had to give. Ian, We knew the power that we had and what we could do with it.
13 November 1987 Friday - International 1, 47 Anson Road, Manchester, M14 * Ticket Price: £2.50 (Advance) £3.00 (On The Door) * Support Act(s): Inspiral Carpets
Sally Cinnamon / Elephant Stone / Here It Comes / I Wanna Be Adored / Mersey Paradise / Going Down / Your Time Will Come / The Hardest Thing In The World / Waterfall / She Bangs The Drums / This Is The One
Notes: Often noted as Mani's debut show but apparently he played a smaller show prior to this. Also the debut for Waterfall too. Friday the 13th.
On the original flyer Inspiral Carpets are billed as the support act but I have seen The Waltones billed on the same date?
Ian had let his hair grow and had long side burns, he also wore the Jackson Pollock style shirt too.
From the photo Mani looked like he had a black eye? Either that or he was very tired. He wore a white shirt and played a pollock style bass but it wasn't the well known Rickenbacker as seen in the TV appearances.
John used his pollocked style guitar.
Pretty sure Rough Trade's Geoff Travis was in the audience, unconfirmed though. Geoff and members of Rough Trade travelled to Manchester to see the band live and said that when he went backstage to tell The Roses he wanted to sign them, in classic fashion, The Roses' reaction was basically, "Meh... whatever."
Richard Ingram (Vancouver, Canada) said: ''I returned to Manchester in November 1987 for that Manchester International gig. The first song, Sally Cinnamon, was way out of tune. They got it together after that. The same can't be said for my friends and I, who sat glued to the same seats for most of the night. It was my one and only experience of acid, and the skies had gone purple as we walked there. By the time we arrived, we could no longer form complete sentences. A good time was had by all''
From Blood On The Turntable BBC TV Documentary, Shaun Ryder said: Mani was the last piece of the jigsaw, he's totally infectious, he's infected, he's infected with everything...
16 November 1987 - Mani's 25th birthday
24 November 1987 - John Squire's 25th birthday
December 1987 - Peter Hook agrees to record with The Stone Roses
Notes: Slim, Stone Roses Roadie/New order roady/Ian's friend, set up the initial meeting. Dates were pencilled in at Hookys Studio for December and early 88'.
From May 1990 - Sky Magazine, Jon Wilde article: “They were booked into a studio to record a second single,” Revolver boss, Paul Birch, explains. “But over a period of time, we became aware that they weren’t going to continue working with us.”
1998 - Record Collector, December 1997 - Hotel, Park Lane, John Reed Interview/article: RC: Your first Silvertone single, "Elephant Stone", was produced by New Order’s Peter Hook…
IB: Hooky was a mate of a friend called Slim who was roadying for us – he used to roadie for New Order. Hooky’s engineer, Michael Johnson did most of it but Hooky played a part.
RC: "Elephant Stone" has a very strong drum sound. I always assumed that was the Peter Hook influence… IB: I’d say it was Peter Hook and us. We wanted Reni out there. We wanted people to hear what he could do.
07 December 1987 - Dingwalls, Camden Lock, Chalk Farm Road, NW1, London * Support Act(s): The Poppies, Blurt!, Worry Dolls
Notes: Representatives from Rough Trade and Zomba were in the audience, apparently Gareth Evans & Matthew Cummins were responsible for the invites, more like Lindsay Reade.
N - 1987 - The Stone Roses & Gareth Evans meet with Rough Trade Records
Notes: The band worked out a deal with the record label in a pub in London. The band would return in early 88' to sign the deal. Ian stated in an interview in 1998 that the band never signed with Rough Trade Records.
1987 - Strawberry Studios / Yellow 2 Studios, Stockport, Manchester
Waterfall / Shoot You Down (Drum Machine version)
Notes: Unconfirmed date. These tracks are commonly noted as 1987 Demos on bootlegs but the date could actually be 'June 1988 - Coconut Grove Studios, Stockport'
Apparently Shoot You Down was only written in 1988 so contradicts the recording date. Shoot You Down features alternate lyrics including ‘and the time has come to kick you down, to the ground’ and a drum machine too.
From February 1998 - Uncut magazine Ian Brown interview: “About ’88. We started recording in May/June, and we’d signed the deal (with Silvertone) in April, and then we’d written Bye Bye Badman, Shoot You Down, Elizabeth My Dear.
Bootleg: The Complete Stone Roses Demo Collection - Tape (IAWS I Am Without Shoes / stoneroses.net (Will Odell)) Various
Bootleg: ...And on the sixth day whilst God created Manchester...the Lord created The Stone Roses (November 1990. Vinyl White Label. Matrix B-Side: B) ''The following tracks are all taken from various demos/sessions:'' Tragic Roundabout (Tradjic Roundabout) (August 1984 - Spirit Studios) / Misery Dictionary (So Young) (August 1984 - Spirit Studios) / Mission Impossible (August 1984 - Spirit Studios) / Nowhere Fast (Just A Little Bit) (August 1984 - Spirit Studios) / Trust A Fox (1985 - Garage Flower Session) / All I Want (1985 - Garage Flower Session) / Fall (not listed on sleeve) (1985 - Garage Flower Session) / Gettin' Plenty (You Can Have Me, Wherever You Want Me) (Getting Plenty) (1985 - Garage Flower Session) / Heart On The Staves (fades out 2:45) (1985 - Garage Flower Session) / I Wanna Be Adored - Heart On The Staves (24 March 1985 - Piccadilly Radio Session) / Tell Me (not listed on sleeve) (24 March 1985 - Piccadilly Radio Session) / Waterfall (1987 unconfirmed, see Strawberry Studios) / / Elephant Stone (with different words) (12 December 1986 - Chorlton) / Shoot You Down (Drum Machine version) (1987 unconfirmed, see Strawberry Studios) / (less than a second cut off from The Hardest Thing In The World (1986 - Yacht Club Studios, Bredbury, Manchester) / This Is The One (1985 - Garage Flower Session) / (Song For My) Sugar Spun Sister (12 December 1986 - Chorlton) / The Sun Still Shines (listed but not included)
December 1987 - Revolution Studios, Cheadle, Stockport
Elephant Stone / The Hardest Thing in the World
Notes: The initial Elephant Stone demo recording. The date came from a bootleg. The session could actually just be when Peter Hook met The Stone Roses with thanks to Slim and Lindsay Reade.
I believe the sessions started in January 1988. Michael Johnson was the engineer during the recordings.
A Rough Trade demo tape circulating in 1988 apparently featured this recording (also see January 1988).
Geoff Travis of Rough Trade Records funded the recording session, with hope that the band would release on Rough Trade.
From 04 March 2011 - Clash Magazine/Website article "The Life And Times Of The Stone Roses Peter Hook said "I’d heard of them as they were the young pretenders around Manchester at that time. I had seen ’em as well and thought they were okay. I was in this period of going out all the time and having a good time and they were always there. We were like the old guard that they aspired to be...Gareth asked me to produce their next track, ‘Elephant Stone’. It was funny because I’d done it for nothing but Gareth insisted on paying me. He asked me how much I wanted and I said I didn’t have a clue and had did it for the pleasure. Then I remember him taking out this fucking huge wad of notes and him peeling off what he presumably thought was the right amount of money, and I shoved it in my pocket because I was embarrassed ecause it didn’t feel nice doing it like that. But when I got home and checked it, it was a thousand quid! So I was over the fucking moon!"
Geoff Travis said: “They were just brilliant, fully formed, great songs…the thing that was really wonderful was that the rhythm section was such an elastic dancing creature, which very few great rock ’n’ roll bands seem able to achieve. That’s always one of the secrets to making a great band. If a rock ’n’ roll band can make you dance, you are in a really good place.”
1998 - Record Collector, December 1997 - Hotel, Park Lane, John Reed Interview/article: RC: Your first Silvertone single, "Elephant Stone", was produced by New Order’s Peter Hook… IB: Hooky was a mate of a friend called Slim who was roadying for us – he used to roadie for New Order. Hooky’s engineer, Michael Johnson did most of it but Hooky played a part.